No offence taken, of course the current streams don’t justify it.
But once my channel gets tens or hundreds of thousands of concurrent viewers, it absolutely will.
The CHIP is not about today, but about establishing the precedent that can work at global scale - similar to the blocksize algorithm CHIP.
This will also be explained in the next update.
Actually it’s even worse.
Whether we like it or not, most people in the western world - the ones who (mostly) code popular node and client software - have their lives organized in the Monday-Friday = Work and Saturday + Sunday = Rest patterns.
The reasons are multiple, there are very many reasons and they are all very strong and very hard to change:
Above are simply not possible to overcome with a wishful thought like the one the creator of this CHIP had.
That said I agree that celebration is important, making history with significant event is also important, but they cannot come at a cost of forced labor for everybody who does not want to work at Saturday (which is most developers, probably).
So unfortunately I have to disapprove of this CHIP and I find the whole idea useless at this point in history and civilizational development.
So is having alternating days of the week throughout time better? Having this set for every Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or just the same day every week, would be better, no? Your comments on Religion, Inertia, Culture, Habits, etc conflict with one another, to some degree. Having on the same day of the week would likely be more ideal.
Currently there are no major holidays surrounding May 15.
There is no requirement for the actual first mined block on the new rules to coincide with any party, livestream or discussion. Each can be at its own timetable as they deem useful.
The base problem of making people work on a convenient time for others to have a party shows that probably this artificial similartiy is not the best thing to do.
I think the message may have been misconstrued at some point. This would go into a revised CHIP.
The point is not for some “party.” Yes, absolutely that is a factor (though I wouldn’t use the term “party”…), but not the only consideration.
People have pointed out that going to every day of a week would be inconsistent and would be changing things around for the commonman. I raise two issues with this thinking:
As stated in the proposal, the goal is to find a day that is most convenient for all. Be that devs, stakeholders, or the community. Yes, the community does not need the proposed weekend other than for celebration. Fine, granted and noted. Devs/stakeholders that full time job is this, why would they care? Maybe they wouldn’t! But I sure as heck know that many would prefer to have consistent days off (if they choose to take days off). How about developers that build apps and otherwise on BCH where this isn’t their full time job (most), well having an upgrade go live on a weekday could prove significantly challenging if issues arise with their software/program that affect the end users (aka the community).
Maybe those hobbyists (working to improve BCH and expand its reach) are not important enough to the stakeholders/devs, and they can figure it out whenever.
I think the tldr here is that a set day of the week arguably offers better consistency, and this is not only a dev/stakeholder coin, this is a coin meant bring financial freedom to the world, and anything that can improve the odds of that by raising awareness, keeping applications running, and otherwise (particularly when we are NOT a major nor world currency), should be explored.
P.S. nothing above is said with any angst, perhaps just bits of passion! 
Uh not really.
I will make an educated guess that 90% of developers with cryptography/crypto/security experience do not work on Saturdays, Sundays - and working Friday afternoon too has high risk into working all-weekend if bugs are suddenly found.
My point is only about forcing people who are not accustomed to working weekends, to work on weekends.
Almost nobody who codes things daily is going to like this.
If you didn’t ignore my point, you’d not have formulated it this way.
I’ll repeat:
I have to add that your statement feels very socialistic, the “need” of the community to be important and the people that can work should provide for them.
Let me be clear; that kind of thing doesn’t work in an open, decentralized and civil system like Bitcoin Cash.
While we are at it /someone should at least roughly define how the BCH ecosystem works and how are things done, because newcomers will be working on it in the dark though.
We’re just too damn decentralized and decentralization, unfortunately, naturally causes chaos.
right,
good point. Re-reading this I think it may be seen that I personally just told someone they are not allowed to do something. Rest assured, nobody in BCH has that kind of power!
The reason I wrote that this proposal won’t fly in BCH is because I understand what is the result of an open market. A place where people don’t do stuff because government makes them, or do stuff to do virtue signalling, they don’t even do stuff because some “majority” makes them do it.
The open market is defined by the individuals own needs and greeds. In today’s society that is seen as selfish or otherwise bad. Which is sad as the opposite has been true for thousands of years.
Two people that voluntarily agree to make a trade (you get money, customer gets goods) creates wealth because both parties gained in the exchange. It is the basis of community, society and it is the basis of open markets. It is the basis of all wealth-creation.
And it is the basis of Bitcoin Cash.
I’m keeping this open, doesn’t have to be a weekend, could be a set weekday too. Last year the upgrade was on a weekend, on a Sunday (May 15, 2022). If devs don’t like it, and that’s the group that matters most for this, then perhaps we should revise this CHIP to set a certain day of the week, closest to the 15th of May, to ensure this never happens on weekends.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I do not see the direct relation, entirely. It seems an argument against this is “x does not want rules dictating how/when things should happen, no body to dictate it.” That’s fair enough. But a May 15 and November 15 day, those both are locked in days. By a body or not, that’s the standard. So, my counter to that is that there is no difference between a specific numbered day of the month/year and a specific weekday. They’re one and the same.
Well this isn’t what the author of the CHIP wants, so having a CHIP named “CHIP 2023-07 Network Upgrades only on Saturdays” and having it on any other day under the banner of this CHIP would be highly misleading and probably not reasonable.
Another idea would be to just hard drop this CHIP, because it certainly does not make any sense as things are right now.
@BitcoinCashPodcast and I are co-authors of this CHIP. And I still agree with the original reasoning. However, I’m taking this discussion in an open manner here to point out an inconsistent idea proposed by some (that is, weekends are bad, when the 15th will fall on weekends naturally). Specifically on this, though, I would very much like to see your opinion and/or counterargument to having this fall on the closest Monday or Tuesday, for instance, to May 15th every year, to ensure this is always on a weekday and NEVER on a weekend or towards the end of the typical work week, as you and others have mentioned.
The point of CHIPs, and discussion here, is that these are proposals. People discuss the idea, the merits and considerations, and can revise, re-propose, or abandon the idea. As I think stated above, we had the intention to go back to the drawing board on this one, take everyone’s feedback, and potentially re-propose this or a similar concept addressing the comments made in this thread.
But that’s the beauty of this CHIP process! If people do not agree, then the idea does not move forward! But we shouldn’t have, in my opinion, an environment where people are shunned for suggesting something. That’s suppression, and is something we in BCH aim to avoid.
Either way, thank you all for the feedback thus far!
This is highly reasonable.
But also, like, entirely different proposal.
So should this proposal just be renamed to avoid heavy confusion? Or maybe just make a new proposal?
Not sure if a new proposal or updated title would be better. If changing the concept like this, perhaps a new proposal would make more sense. I think starting it as a discussion, something like “Network Upgrades on Set Day of Week,” to start, so people can discuss what day would make the most sense, then a title could be changed accordingly.
Though, in my personal opinion, I believe the marketing aspect, particularly at this early stage, would be highly beneficial. I would hope a few could give up a weekend in order to support creating greater hype for the community as a whole. In the future, it will matter less, probably, but for now we could use every bit of hype we can get.
I think a new proposal should give the merits and considerations of a weekend and a week day, then further those discussions!
You can hope. But you cannot assume, that would be unfair. Most people(especially coders) don’t work weekends. Period.
Wait a moment…
There are many special occasions and celebrations being done on weekdays! These days are often even made labor-free days by the government.
Where did this idea that Saturday == Celebration come from at all?
Sounds like something a religion would enforce lol.
First of all, I’m not the one to convince. I’m only tangibly a stakeholder. All the comments on this chip were made by people equally not actually doing the hard work. In order to get a CHIP accepted you need to get actual stakeholders to make a positive and supportive statement.
But to the question I quoted:
So, what about moving the media hype? No CHIP needed. There is literally nothing to see, nothing happening for normal people when a protocol upgrade is finalized. It never made sense to me to have a livestream of an event you can’t see. An event that has a timing that isn’t even very exact.
Agreed completely.
Pushing for such a CHIP without asking the active developers that will have to do the actual weekend crunches in order to fix the (inevitable) bugs sooner or later, seems kind of misdirected and pointless.
Dear Colleagues,
I wish to express my opposition to the proposed change outlined in this CHIP for scheduling network upgrades exclusively on Saturdays. If there’s a voting mechanism in place for this proposal, please consider my vote as negative.
Reasons for Opposition:
Conclusion: While the proposal may have merits, the cons, from my perspective as a developer, outweigh the pros. A Saturday upgrade doesn’t accommodate the realities and rhythms of development work leading up to an upgrade, potentially leading to exhaustion and reduced vigilance at a critical time.
I kindly urge reconsideration of this proposal with the above points in mind. Engaging in further community discussions and evaluations to weigh the potential impacts on all stakeholders would be advisable before finalizing any decision.
Best regards,
Fernando.
If it doesn’t make sense to you to have a livestream of an event you can’t see, but the community has consistently done so & benefited & enjoyed it & thus continued the tradition then that means that you just don’t get it, not that it’s not important or nonsensical or without value.
We’re still in the ideation phase. Don’t get hung up on labels, we’re not going to change around the label constantly as everyone discusses. Maybe if there is significant progress towards a different solution then we will change it.
The key question remains. If everyone is so set AGAINST weekends, would they be FOR a set schedule on e.g. Tuesday? Surely all the arguments against weekends are arguments for week days (and against a randomly occurring day, which has only status quo for justification)?
It seems to me like everyone is upset about the idea of a change, more than considering the reasoning of the proposal or trying to find an optimal solution. Hearing a lot of pushback on Saturdays as the wrong day, but very little reflection on would Tuesday be better, or some other day? Nobody seems to have made a single argument for May 15 besides “it’s the way it is so let’s not change it”.
Alex and I will be working on an updated document over time though, but we’re a way off from that.
Once again I am going to highlight that the difficulty of this CHIP is in convincing a bunch of engineers of the importance of other disciplines (e.g. marketing) in the health of the network - which they aren’t predisposed to do. But perhaps we can make progress, I hope so.