Minting lottery vs hashpower competition

[drdoom]

I surmise that the hashpower competition aka mining for new coins (er, cash) inheritently emboldens those who have capital and thus feeds monopolization both from existing encumbants from fiat world (who can enter the competition anytime) and early adopters who already have more than a fair share of newly minted BCH.

This contrasts with the supposed freedom centric stick-it-to-the-man individual-empowering notion that Bitcoin in general was founded upon.

As such, should we not consider a new proposal to adjust the minting procedure ? That features ‘anti industrial scale mining’ as its’ prime directive; the intention to spread newly minted BCH to ‘the average man’ instead of corporations or fat cats.

If I was to make such a proposal, I might suggest the feature be implemented as a minting lottery. Rolled out gradually to slowly wane miners off the running tap of new BCH which is by the way something they need to do when the amount of BCH runs out anyway (albeit in 2040 or whatever is the projected year for BCH).

But implemented fully, the proposal would reward ‘individuals’ instead of miners (though miners would still get payout for fees).

Definition of ‘indvidual’ TBD but it needs to be some reliable/secure way to identify ‘the average man’. For now, let’s just say an individual is anyone who has downloaded a wallet that has recently implemented this feature; let’s call it a ‘superwallet’.

Now, when a new block is mined - instead of assigning the newly minted BCH to the winning miner, the BCH is randomly awarded to a superwallet user. And gone from the equation is the confict-of-interest mining industrialization monopolization factor.

I’m not saying this is a perfect solution or that it is even possible - you tell me; I’m eager for feedback and also alternative ideas or existing currencies that may already have some shape or form of ‘anti industrial scale mining/minting’ built in. I know for example Monero has its RandomX algorithm which is CPU friendly with basically this intent in mind. But I don’t necessarily think that is the best solution not to mention Monero’s unauditable chain. So hopeful to see other examples so ‘this reseach’ can continue or even conclude in some form or another.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@drdoom

I surmise that the hashpower competition aka mining for new coins (er, cash) inheritently emboldens those who have capital and thus feeds monopolization both from existing encumbants from fiat world (who can enter the competition anytime) and early adopters who already have more than a fair share of newly minted BCH.

Incorrect.

Hashpower competition emboldens those who are creative and work hard (or smart, or both).

It does not empower those with just capital. You still have to be careful how you use that capital, otherwise you will waste it if you mine ineffectively.

@drdoom

For now, let’s just say an individual is anyone who has downloaded a wallet that has recently implemented this feature; let’s call it a ‘superwallet’.

This is extremely inefficient and insanely easy to hack/sybil attack.

It will never work.

@drdoom

Definition of ‘indvidual’ TBD but it needs to be some reliable/secure way to identify ‘the average man’.

So, to sum up your whole proposal, you have nothing, no solution for the Byzantine Generals problem and you come to us and propose exactly that - nothing of value.

[drdoom]

@ShadowOfHarbringer

So, to sum up your whole proposal, you have nothing, no solution for the Byzantine Generals problem and you come to us and propose exactly that - nothing of value.

The OP was worded specifically so as to not propose anything - I suggested this as hypothetical with the intention to get feedback:

@drdoom

If I was to make such a proposal, I might suggest …

So I appreciate your feedback, despite the tone. If there is a better place for causual discussion of BCH ideas please let me know.

@ShadowOfHarbringer

This is extremely inefficient and insanely easy to hack/sybil attack.

It will never work.

Again, appreciate your feedback - this was an example starting point.

Iterating on said example, say the newly minted BCH only issues if said wallet holder actually performs a tx from another wallet.

Again, this is no where near an actually good solution (and I’m not suggesting to entirely replace the consensus model btw). It’s flawed because it is too easy to just create multiple wallets but you can see where I’m going with this - common procedure in engineering is to come up with a hypothesis to a problem and proof concept it with an approachable ‘dumb’ solution and iterate on that until you find a less dumb solution & implementation plan worthy of prototyping; you then construct/code and test it to evaulate the results in the real world before rolling it out for wider adoption if everything checks out.

Of course, you pull this back to a debate about whether the problem is actually a problem - I respect that; this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for - as you point out there are important merits to the hashpower competition.

@ShadowOfHarbringer

Hashpower competition emboldens those who are creative and work hard (or smart, or both).

It does not empower those with just capital. You still have to be careful how you use that capital, otherwise you will waste it if you mine ineffectively.

Great points. Note, the competition would not be replaced entirely, but rather be waned off as the system is intended to when all the BCH is minted anyway. Hypothetical proposal would wane it off sooner.

Consider another high level example in that there are 2 stages to the life of Bitcoin Cash (well 3 if you count its Bitcoin stage). Pre cap and post cap. I’m suggesting a new stage in the middle. Call it ‘minting lottery’ stage but it’s implemented as a transition just as the final post cap stage happens. In this middle stage we reduce the imprortance of the hashpower competition and encourage alternatives to acquiring newly minted coin that help the network in different way ie- avoid centralizing payouts narrowly to only those with mining infrastructure.

It could also help with adoption. I’m not a gambler and don’t necessarily like the implications but you can imagine an increased demand for a currency that has inherit lottery ticket system built in. It’s probably a conservative estimate that half of BTC/BCH holders are in primarily to gamble anyway. So we amplify that characterisitc with the chance of earning a freshly minted coin with a transaction as simple as buying a cup of coffee.

Again, just spitballing. I’m not convinced that mining is not headed towards extreme monopolization if it hasn’t already. It’s not that mining is/was a problem it’s just that mining may have already served its prupose (to bootstrap the chain) and now that the chain is big and widely distributed it may be time to consider new ideas for making this a currency system more closely aligned with the original purpose.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

@drdoom

So I appreciate your feedback, despite the tone.

I apologize, I mistook you for somebody trying to do some mischief here.

I generally regard any attempts to undermine Nakamoto Consensus as highly suspicious. And there have been multiple attacks over the years.

@drdoom

So I appreciate your feedback, despite the tone. If there is a better place for causual discussion of BCH ideas please let me know.

There is:

Bitcoin - A Peer to Peer Electronic Cash System - for “slow” discussions stretched over multiple days.

Telegram Web - for real-time, bleeding-edge general discussions
Telegram Web - for for real-time strongly offtopic discussion
Telegram Web - for for real-time, bleeding edge development discussions

I would strongly suggest to discuss such highly hipothetical and not-entirely-practical ideas there.

[bitcoincashautist]

@drdoom

I’m not convinced that mining is not headed towards extreme monopolization if it hasn’t already.

No it isn’t. sha256d is the most mature algorithm and hardware is widely distributed, and anyone can invest few hundred $ for some ASIC and join the game. If you want BCH, just buy it lol, why would you need to mine or play this lottery? Pools are not hardware owners. sha256d mining industry is THE BEST security provider there is.

I’m lurking in one miner’s Tg, and they estimate there being 1000s of 1-3 MW sites, and many more smaller than 1 MW. One guy said he knows 50 10+ MW sites off the top of his head.

[drdoom]

Thanks for those links, have posted to the reddit sub:

https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/165q6av/minting_lottery_vs_hashpower_competition

and no worries, I totally understand suspicion; assuming the worst is prudent.

[tom]

@drdoom

early adopters who already have more than a fair share

If you want socialism, Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash is not for you.